Conversation with a gay return missionary, part 3

Part 3, a continuation of my conversation with a friend.  (my questions/comments are in red, his answers are in green)



Maybe you have answered this in other questions, but have you found peace and healing and if so how?

When I stopped fighting who I knew that I was, and who I am, that's when I found ultimate peace.  I didn't have to worry anymore that I was sinning or that other people were looking at me differently, or I would have to go see my Bishop next week, or not be able to take the sacrament.  Or not having to feel the fear of, okay I didn't take the sacrament, who's looking at me, what are they thinking of me?  When I let all of those barriers and fears of inadequacy completely go, and I could just fully embrace life and the freedom to be me, that's when I found the most happiness.  Because when I was going to church, I was always afraid of being judged, even though as members we are taught not to judge.  But I was guilty of the same thing,  I looked around to see who wasn't taking the sacrament, and thinking, I wonder what they did?  One thing that I really hated was sitting in the congregation and thinking that the Bishop was starring at me because I had just met with him the week before.  And I always felt in the back of my head that he always thought about what I had done.  I always had that fear of, what was he thinking?  They always said that a Bishop is so loving and caring, and they are, don't get me wrong, but why did it make me feel so inadequate, and so dirty, and so sinful?  That part I never understood.  I think a lot of it was based out of fear, okay I just took the sacrament and I wasn't worthy, what's going to happen to my salvation? Oh, I better go repent, I better go tell the Bishop, I  stole something, or I looked a pornography or I cheated on a test.  When I felt so badly and let someone else have that kind of power over me, that kind of influence over me, I wasn't able to just be, to be totally and completely free. 

Do you think it's ironic, that we allow these men to be in charge of our salvation?

It's so crazy for me to even fathom, that we go in and talk to a Bishop and they say, okay you struggle with this, I need to know more.  I don't get that.  Even when I was a member, I never did get that part.  I hope that answers your question, I think when I didn't limit myself to a certain religion, or certain congregation or a specific kind of person, it really opened my eyes to a lot of really incredible experiences.   For one, the friends that I have now, I could never image having allowed them to be in my life if I was still an active member of the church. 

 What advice would you have for others in a similar situation as you, especially return missionaries?

The first thing that comes to my mind is to not loose who you are, to not loose yourself, not to be overwhelmed.  I've been there and I have done that, and it was so overwhelming to be back in the world.  Give it time, don't be ashamed of who you are.  What I would advise, and easier said than done, because I've been there, I've been down that road, I've lived with the fear of what if somebody finds out that I'm gay?  How are people going to react and are they still going to be my friend when they find out that I'm gay.  Looking back it was a huge thing.  It was a big deal, it was like earth shattering to me, it really was.  I consumed it, it thought it, I breathed it, I ate it, I worried about it, I lost sleep over it, I made myself sick over it.  Umm... just to really give it time, to just be you, don't allow others to dictate your happiness and who you are and who you want to be, I just think that, life is too short to live the way others want you to live.  Embrace it, don't be afraid to be different, and if people do see you as different, that's okay.  Again, it's not the end of the world, but when I was in that situation is was my world, it was everything to me, and I thought it all come tumbling down and for a while it did, but I picked myself up and brushed myself off and I found my way.

What advice would you have for church leaders when they have a gay person come to them?

Yes, the word force should never be counsel that you give to a young man or woman that's having trouble with their sexuality.  I don't think that we should ever teach someone to force themselves to be someone they are not.  And I really felt that I was dirty and that I was less of a person, that I was a sinner, that I was making all these mistakes.   I really think that the church leaders need to understand that the counsel that they give or don't give is damaging.  It's killing a lot of youth, I know that in the last few years there were quite a few young men in the church that were struggling with coming out, that took their own lives, and I think that it comes back to the pressure that these church leaders are putting upon these men that are coming out.  There was so much pressure to keep that hidden, keep that quiet, it destroys the way you think about yourself, the way you see yourself, the way you live, it just takes everything out of you. It completely rips your soul from your body, it damaging.  And you know, I also think, when I was going through that, I wish they could have been more understanding, that they would have been more patient.  That they really would have been less afraid to say, you know this is wrong, Heavenly Father isn't happy with the choice that you are making.  I really think that at that age you are so vulnerable and you are already going through so much, that that should never be a part of the conversation, that you are not good enough, you need to go to the temple more often and read your scriptures, and you need to see the Stake President more often.  I think that church leader should teach that you should embrace yourself.  When they want to teach that we should be the exact same, and fit that cookie cutter mold, that's the issue.  I think the church, or any organization for that matter would function so much better if they allowed diversity, and they allowed other to think for themselves and not the way their church leader wants them to think.  I really think that's the issue. 

Do you think they understand that they are possibly dealing with life and death situations, and the way that they handle it could actually mean life or death to someone?

I look at myself, for years I was suicidal, I took antidepressants, I was in and out of doctors offices, I didn't want to live any more, I was depressed, I couldn't get out of bed.  It almost killed me, the judgment of others almost killed me, so I would agree with you that that is true, that these are life and death matters. 

Do you think they have any inkling that they are dealing with something like that?  When you were talking with your Bishop, do you think he understood that you might be in such a situation as that, and that the way he was handling it could effect whether you lived or not?

I think that part of the problem, is that they don't understand.  And I don't think they have taken the time to want to understand.  If it's not in the church manual, if it's not what the first presidency has come out with, then he can't teach it. 

It seems that all they can see is this big sin, and they have a hard time seeing past that.

They can't.  They can't see, here's an incredible young man, that is worthy to reach out for my help.  What am I going to do to help him?  Forget the church, forget the teachings, as a human being, what can I do to help this individual, to not kill himself or not be depressed?  Just humanity, what can I do to help save this person? 

What advice would you give to parents/families that find out they have a gay child?  By the way I think your family did a very good job.

I would agree and disagree, I would agree to the fact that they didn't kick me out of the family, they didn't disown me, they didn't say we can't love you as much.  They never approached it like that, and for that I'm so thankful, because I think that would have pushed me even further over the edge than I was at that point.  They were always very loving, very accepting. I always think back to my little sister, she was always so understanding.  She asked question after question after question, and wanted to know what I was thinking and how it made me feel and I remember her asking me, "well have you ever kissed a guy or held a guy's hand?" and I was like, no, and she said, "well how do you know your gay?" "Just go try it, you may find out you love it or you may hate it, then you will know."  That's advice that I will never forget, she was like, "just go try it, there's no harm in that."  "There's nothing wrong in wanting to explore the way that you feel."  She said, "that doesn't make you a bad person, I don't look at you any differently."  But I think that's the issue, I even have a good friend here in SLC.  She just came out to her parents, they are not religious, they are not anything, they completely disowned her, they said we will not associate with you, if you choose to live that way.  So I don't necessarily think its an LDS viewpoint of disowning you or we don't agree with that,  I just think as a society we don't know how to deal with it.  To be honest with you I think my version of homosexuality and being gay is probably different then some of my friends, I think there are different levels and different degrees of what homosexuality is.  And I think that I'm still trying to discover what I think it means to me.  Because I don't think that I understand it for myself still.  I know that it's something that I enjoy and it feels natural to me, but I'm not sure I understand, big picture, what it's going to mean for me down the road. 

That's an interesting point, because you mentioned that before, that you didn't exactly know what being gay meant to you.  I wouldn't think that you would still not have an understanding of it.  But that's interesting, just like any other person doesn't have an understanding of certain things right?

Yes, and to add to that, I think what I'm still trying to figure out is: I know that I'm gay, but for me to be completely happy being gay, do I need to be in a relationship and have kids?  That's what I'm trying to figure out for myself.  I know that I want kids, and I'd like to be a partner with one person and have kids, have a family. I know that's what I want, but I don't know if that's what's going to bring me the most happiness, later on down the road, that's what I'm trying to figure out, am I going to be a happy single gay man and just date, whatever, or do I really want kids and be committed and have that one person for the rest of my life.  I don't really know that I do.

So how are you going to figure that out?

Good question.  I think it's one of those things that I will have to experience and by trial and error just try to figure it out.  I remember it was so lonely and miserable when I was in Boise. All I wanted was the companionship of someone.  I wanted someone to be there and to love me, but now I think as I have matured, and I have grown, I think my viewpoint is much different now.  I don't think that I'm as dependent on someone else. I think I'm far more independent, then most people, I love my space, I like to be alone.  So I went from one extreme to the next.  I wanted to be with someone, I was depressed that I wasn't with someone, that no one liked me, that I couldn't find someone to be with, then, now that I've found someone, it's just kind of like, do I really want this, or do I want to be independent and single? 

Okay, those are just the same emotions as a straight person, right? 

As far as I know, I assume that's correct, I don't know. 

Those seem like pretty typical emotions that anyone could experience.

Yes, absolutely.

Here's my last question, this is what I'm beginning to wonder, perhaps God puts us down here in different categories, different races, different religions, different sexualities, we are all in these different groups in different ways. Do you think that He does that, so that we learn to look outside our group, to overcome prejudices and learn to love others?  Is that a possibility?

It's kind of an oxymoron, it's like the church teaches charity, which is the pure love of Christ, it's pretty safe to assume that most members are not okay about accepting diversity.  So it's interesting that you pose the question that way.  I absolutely one hundred percent agree that that is part of the "test".  I really do believe that that is part of the bigger picture, for all of us to be different, for all of us to look and see that diversity is okay.  That someone with tattoos or a nose ring or black or Russian, or someone that has maybe one arm or no legs, I really think that diversity was put here on this earth for us to learn to love each other. 












 

Conversation with a gay return missionary - Part two

Welcome to part two.  In this part we will cover his beliefs about salvation, good things that he believes comes from being a member of the church, harm that he believes comes from being a member of the church, and happiness and the church.  Please enjoy this second part of my conversation with a friend: 


Part Two:


What would you say to a mother or father that is Mormon, or born again Christian (because I think they would have a similar view point) who is worried about their gay child's salvation?

I would probably prefecit by saying it's not the end of the world, you may initially be afraid of what that means, what the term "I'm gay" or "I'm coming out" means because I think its different for everyone.  But I think over time they would come to love their child regardless. I think the initial reaction is that we live in a world where anyone that is different or stands out is not accepted.  And like for my own mom, when I told her that I was coming out, that I was gay, her reaction as well was that we live in a world that is so cruel, and my mom, even to this day worries about me, worries about my safety.  I don't necessarily know that she still worries about my salvation, but when it's all said and done, I know that the Lord understands where each of us is at in our lives, and I really think he takes into consideration, not only our intent, our pureness of heart, but how we treat other people. I don't necessarily think its going to be salvation based on being straight or gay or black or white, or Mormon or sinner, non denominational or Catholic.  I really think it going to depend on who we are as a person, as we ultimately leave this earth life, so yeah, I think my view point has changed in regard to salvation.  Before I thought you had to do certain things, where now I don't believe that is the case; because we are all given different opportunities and we have so many different circumstances. It's impossible that we can all be judged according to the same things. Yeah, I just believe that our salvation is worked out, whatever that means, I think it's probably different for every one, but I think ultimately its between us and the Lord and he will decide that in our own time, and that it's not something that I necessarily worry about myself, but I can see where it would be alarming for a parent that was a Mormon or Christian or Born Again, or whatever they classify themselves as.  I think because the Bible teaches us that it's a sin or the Mormon church teaches is that marriage is between a man and a woman and not a man and a man or woman and a woman, that it defeats the whole plan of salvation, I think that's the initial worry.  But I think of it so much different now. 



What about the fact that a lot of people think it's plain in the Bible that it's a sin?  Can you address that a little bit more?

Thinking back as myself as a missionary, and kind of using my missionary answer that I used back then, is that there are so many interpretations to the Bible, that it's so hard to distinguish what is a sin and what isn't a sin.  Even though it clearly states that it is a sin, I would just put back on them, "thou shalt not judge"  if that person is judging me, they are just as much at fault for being a sinner then I am, being attracted to a man.  I know it may not have the same degree, but I think that, and again my view point has changed so much, where I don't allow the viewpoint or the judgment of others to effect me to the point where I loose sleep or be worried about my salvation.  In that case, personally, it wouldn't have the same effect on me as when I was a member of the church. 

When you stopped going to church, was there ever times that you wanting to go running back, back to that doctrine?

Oh Yeah, I don't necessarily think I want to run back to the doctrine, but I think even to this day there are times that I want to run back to the comforts of the social aspects of the church, because it was so safe.  When I first moved to SLC, I didn't have that instant network, I didn't have the safety net of being able to go to a place where there were people my age with similar interests that I could instantly bond with.  So having said that, I had to start over, I had to find my own social network. I don't want to necessarily run back to the doctrine because that's not really what I think about, I think more of the social aspect of the church, that's most appealing to me so in that case you know there are still times when I think it would be so easy and I would have so many more friends, it would be such a safety net if I needed help or just needed someone to be there, I still often feel that and I don't necessarily know if that will ever leave.  Because I think it is such a safety net, its something so comforting that I had for so long, I think that's what's most appealing about the church.

Are you still a member?

I've never technically had my name removed from the records of the church or been excommunicated and I certainly know that if I went back I would be, but it's really interesting I never really felt that it was necessary or appropriate to allow another man or the church to have that kind of power over me, I never wanted to sign a piece of paper or have someone say to me, this is your last chance, you can go to church court or you can choose to refuse this or fight this, whatever they say.  I just never felt that my leaving the church should be on someone else's terms, I wanted it to be on my own terms.  So while I'm not practicing and haven't been for 6 years, I never felt that I needed to end it that quickly and abruptly, so I guess technically I still am a member, but in my head I'm not.

I'm going to ask you, off the top of your head, if you had to make a list of the harm that the church brings into peoples lives, if any, what would you say it is?

I think back to testimony meetings as a young kid, watching all those young kids stand up and say verbatim what their parents say, I think that is harmful, it doesn't allow kids in the church to think for themselves or to ever really question, so I think as they get older in the church that continues to evolve, I think it goes back to the conversation we had a few weeks ago of not being allowed to question someone's beliefs or a doctrine that is taught in church.  I would say that has to be on of the most harmful, it is in a way brainwashing, it's repetition, it's something that's taught at such a young age, it doesn't allow the freedom to think and to believe how you would choose when you're older.

I think second, the knowledge that we are the only true church, that if you are not baptized into the LDS church you're not going to be saved, I think that is very harmful.  Having served a mission and having taught that for two years, I still don't know if I necessarily believed that portion of what I was teaching, because I always felt in the back of my head that there's no way that that is true, because there are so many good people out there, and even now, my circle of friends is 99.9% non LDS and they are some of the best people, and they have never been LDS.  And I can fathom that they wouldn't be saved.

Three, and without going into too much depth, the temple ceremony was always very strange to me.  I remember very clearly when I went through for my own endowment before my mission, I remember leaning over to my dad and asking "is this our church?" It was so foreign to me, just so out there to me.  I don't know if that's damaging, but for me it raised a lot of questions even before my mission.

I look at a lot of members of the church and they are so judgmental, so closed mined in the way they perceive other people, and I did the same thing.   I remember teaching a lady that we baptized on my mission, and one of the baptismal questions we have to ask is:  Have you been involved in a homosexual relationship?  And she hesitated and was like, "yeah, I have an attraction to women and I have been in situations where I have been with another woman"  It was so funny to me,  that in the back of my own head, I thought to myself, well how can I tell her that that's wrong when I have felt the same thing almost my entire life.?  So that basic believe of judging other people and telling them that they are wrong when I know a lot of members probably struggle with the same thing just are afraid to admit it. 

I see a lot of pride in the LDS church.  I see a lot of pride in its members of them being better then everyone else. Those are probably the main things that come to my mind. 

If you had to list the good that comes from being a member of the church what would you say?

I would say the core value of family, the basic belief that the family is eternal.  Because I would certainly like to that I will be with my family forever, whatever that means and to whatever degree. That to me is probably the most important believe that I still hold true to is the concept of family, in that can still be with my family after this life is over, that's probably the most important thing that I still carry with me as far as values go.  

The word of wisdom, the law of health.  Just being honest in your dealings, I think having standards and morals and treating people with respect.  I think that that was always very well taught growing and to this day those are still core beliefs that I for the most part remember and hold true to.  

I think the level of commitment on any level that the members have is something to be admired.  Members of the church seem to be very wealthy and very successful, education has always been pushed.  And the sacrifice of all these young men and these couples that take18 months or two years out of their life's to leave home and learn a foreign language and to work with and be companions with someone that they have never met. I think that's something to be admired, just the sacrifice that the members of the church put in day in and day out.  I think that's very respectful.

Do you think the church is family oriented?  They say they are, and that's one of the things that you mentioned on your list of good that comes from the church.  Let me ask it another way, do you think the church is destructive to a family or is it family oriented?

Let me answer the first part of the question, do I think the church is family oriented?  I do believe that it is, but I don't necessarily believe that it's with a husband and a wife,  I believe it can be a family with a man and a man or a woman and a woman.  I don't necessarily think that the structure is so defined, like the church teaches.  I really do think a family can even be a single parent. I don't think a mother should be looked down upon  because she doesn't have a spouse.  I think my belief in what family means has changed, versus what I used to.  I used to think that as the church taught a family is a man and a woman and children. But now I don't know that I agree with that, nor do I believe that.  I believe that a family can be two people without any kids, it can be me and a single guy.  If that's my opportunity, then that's my family.

On the second part, yes I think it can be very destructive.  I think about the push for marriage at such a young age, is very destructive.  I believe that my mission president telling me that 6 months after completing my mission I should be married in the temple. Well, I think its very destructive, giving that pressure to young men and women when they are so young  and have not even experienced life, I think that is very harmful.  I think its also very harmful that fact that women are taught to be stay at home mom's and to not necessary get an education, but to raise children in the home.  I think there is a lot of pressure on mother's in the church to have kids at such a young age and to have many kids. I think Utah is one of the highest states for depression and I really think that's because of the pressure that the church puts on families to be so perfect, to be better than their neighbor or to have this and to have that, or to look a certain way or to be perceived a certain way.  I really think the pressure to be the perfect family is a huge flaw in the church. I also have known a lot of really young couples where the husband has struggled with pornography, I think that whole stigma of pornography, and sex outside of a healthy married relationship, can be very damaging,  I know its an evil thing and I'm not promoting it by any means, but I think the shame that a Bishop or Stake President can put on someone is damaging.

When you left the church is had nothing to do with the history of the church, or anything like that; but somewhere along the line you must have become acquainted with the problems with the history of the church, did you?

To be honest with you, that's something that I have never really gotten into, so I can't answer that either way.  And I don't necessarily know now that if I knew the history of the church if it would make me feel any different, because I am so far removed from the church, does that make sense?  I think that if I were still active and I studied those things it would have a huge sway in the way I felt or viewed the church, but that doesn't really matter to me, it just doesn't matter.  I left, not because of what I knew or didn't understand, but because of my orientation and the person that I was and them not accepting me as a person. 

I was talking with someone who told me they left the church unaware of the historical problems, but simply because it wasn't making them happy, would you say that is closer to your experience? 

Yeah, that reminds me of a time when I had first come out and I had just lost my job and I was wondering what I was going to do with my house and with work and my sister happened to be at my house, and I will never forget that she said, "you know, maybe if you started going back to church and living the commandments and seeing the Bishop, maybe you wouldn't be so unhappy, and maybe life would get better for you."  I still to this day can remember in my home, where I was, where she was standing, the look on her face, the tone that she used, what I was thinking at the time.  I love my sister to death, but I literally had to pick her up off the floor and set her outside my door step and say, "if you are going to treat me like that, you are not welcome in my home until you can treat me with equal respect, then you can come back." It's so funny that the importance, like you said, that we allow it to have on us being happy.  I know so many sincerely happy people that are not members of the church.  This is probably one of the happiest times in my life and I'm not a member of the church, I'm not reading the Book of Mormon, I'm not going out with the missionaries, or seeing my Bishop, or going to Sacrament meeting and bearing my testimony or attending Elder Quorum.  I'm not doing any of those things and honestly I'm so much happier, because even when I was doing those things, the guilt that I felt and the wanting to always be better, or thinking I read my scriptures for 30 minutes today, I should probably read them for an hour tomorrow.  There was always that "not good enough mentality" verses now I know that what I am doing is good enough.    


End of Part Two

We will wrap things up in Part Three